A Counter-Argument by Powers/Carr
Edited by Robert J. Peterson
Recently, there has been an uproar about the portrayal of former Teen Titan Starfire in the recent DC 52 reboot comic “Red Hood & the Outlaws.” We are sure some of you have seen it. Well, as nobody seems have anything more constructive to say than “it’s insulting to women” we’ve decided to jump in and defend this most recent incarnation of the golden Tamaranean.
“But, Tim & Sax, it’s obvious fanboy pandering, isn’t it? Why would you defend that?”
It is certainly not because we’re particularly in love with this latest Starfire. We don’t mind it, but we don’t love it. It’s also not because we believe all female comic book characters should put on a bikini and prance around… so just stop writing that comment right now! You have better things to do.
We feel the need to speak up because too few people seem to remember that a writer made this, an artist designed and drew this, and a team of editors overlooked and approved this. None, and we mean NONE of those people are monsters that deliberately put this book on the stands to denigrate women, harm the medium, or get some sort of wanking prepubescent boy ratings (an admittedly sought after demographic, clearly). Or at least we’d like to think so. Dr. Wertham is dead; let his theories die with him.
Honestly, the big issue here is that we felt like everyone is getting upset by proxy. People are getting on the “outrage bandwagon.” This has become an issue mostly because a few good points were made about it and everybody wants to capture that perfect zeitgeist of rage we all felt surrounding the “Batgirl of San Diego” and the pre-52 costume debates. Everyone has their proverbial Wonder Woman panties pants briefs coulats panties in a bunch… and it’s because this issue is currently hot and not because its really affected much of anyone. We hate that. We hate people who toss the latest stock arguments at us at cocktail partys. So, if you’re going to tweet about this without much investment in the points, you better believe we’re gonna make you fight for it.
Before all that, lets stop for a second and make something really clear: We are playing devil’s advocate here because it needs to be done. As enlightened adults, we encourage dialog and debate on issues with many sides and we encourage understanding in every way possible. We don’t condone objectification of women, and we see many of the arguments being lobbed against Starfire to have a lot of merit. As much as we feel like a lot of people are jumping on a bandwagon of collective outrage here, we also have read some fantastic articles that make legitimate points. (Here is a good example from Laura Hudson at Comics Alliance) . We’re nice guys and open to dialog. We’re not discounting anyone’s option but we do see things differently and we’re open to learning the other side’s opinion IF YOU ARE, TOO. Nothing here is supposed to mitigate or marginalize ANYONE. As you will hopefully feel by the end of what you read here, that’s the opposite of what we want.
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Do we feel like a lot of these arguments assume intent in the creative staff.
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YES
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Is that OK?
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NO.
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Does that automatically mean that this current Starfire is valid and everyone should shut up?
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NO.
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Does every argument need to be explored from both sides before truth can be discovered?
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YES!
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Does that exploration mean that anyone with a different opinion is any less valid.
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No.
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Have we covered it? Can we get on with the article now?
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Lets see…
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Here are the 3 main arguments AGAINST this Starfire as We see them:
- This is NOT the Starfire from the Teen Titans cartoon and you love that Starfire. Thus, this is NOT Starfire.
- This Starfire has boobs, wears a bikini, is sexual, and aloof. Some of the panels depicting this Starfire look like shots from a swimsuit calender.
- This incarnation has no character merit. Its pandering, or fan service, or misogyny. No character could EVER have a reason to act that way.
- The 52 Reboot sucks.
Lets take the points as We put them out there:
#1: This is NOT the Starfire from Teen Titans (animated series) –
The Teen Titans cartoon was a great product from DC Entertainment, and we considered ourselves some of its most dedicated viewers. It took a little age-liberty with the term “Teen” and opened the otherwise reasonably unknown characters to a new younger and hungry audience. It also created a number of great characters (Red X) and had some surprisingly cool plots. All in all, Teen Titans (animated series) was a really great piece of entertainment. We wish there was more of it.
Oh… but it didn’t CREATE Starfire. Starfire was created in 1980 and existed in comics for a good twenty years before anyone sat down to design the animated series versions. She was, by and large, always adult bodied, and wore pretty much the same revealing costume. Making the Teen Titans younger and more innocent was a good idea for the cartoon (and the Cartoon Network’s target demographic) but it doesn’t mean that a future version of Starfire has to, let alone should, reflect that. The character existed longer in a version that was more akin to this one Scott Lobdell wrote about in “Red Hood & The Outlaws” than it was to the cartoon. There were different versions of the rest of the Titans there, too. Where is the uproar about the return to an adult Robin? What about Cyborg? He’s not even cybernetic in the current 52. Where’s the web-comic depicting a shocked girl reacting to that? How come nobody’s upset that Robin doesn’t say “Holy (insert dumb comment here)?”
Do we think there should be more tales of the Titans told in this Cartoon Network universe? YES! Let’s release that comic right away. Get out there and make them! But becoming outraged when the character returns to what was arguably her original design (and one that was ongoing in comics WHILE the cartoon was running) is foolish.
What if you learned about Batman from the 1966 Adam West series? Watching the Christian Bale movies must be like being molested. Batman has been light, dark, funny, sad, blue, black, grey, a vampire, dead… you get the point. Characters are allowed to change, and nobody really has much to say about it. They have even LESS to say when a character changes back to its original and traditional version.
One more thing: When you picked up your young daughter’s copy of “Red Hood & The Outlaws” did you think it was a kids’ book? If this really is a seven year old who was “reacting” to this book, presumably you read it first? I mean it’s not a kids’ comic. When Starfire talked about promiscuous sex that wasn’t a red flag that this wasn’t for your daughter? Did you even look at the cover? Did you think “Red Robin” meant that it was a hamburger restaurant chain’s menu? This is just our (presumably hugely offensive) two cents. Do you let your daughter watch anything she wants on TV? Parenting should be in the hands of the parents, not Paul Levitz (or Paul Dini, or Paul Rubens for that matter).
#2: Chesty, Chesty Starfire –
Some talk has been about the (some would say infamous) Starfire bikini scene. Yes, Starfire is sexy. This is not news. She also apparently goes swimming. This is also not news. We don’t mean to be jerks here, but girls with bodies like that wear bikinis just like that in real life. We have seen them. Not that we think any girl has gold skin, but the idea that a girl with a pretty good body might dress in a small bikini and that would be part of the story is not completely out of nowhere. James Bond films have sexy girls getting a few moments of leer-cam in them. Hell, EVERY movie has a few sexy seconds to establish the sexy character is sexy. We think we all in a time where a character can be sexy without everyone who reads it making a call to the local women’s defamation league. Wait wait, don’t flame this post yet… we can put this in perspective:
Back in the 80’s there was another scandal involving Starfire. New Teen Titans (Vol. 2), Issue 1, by Starfire creators Wolfman & Perez. She was depicted in bed (presumably naked) with Robin and (wait for it) THEY WEREN’T MARRIED! (The fact that they technically weren’t the same species has been completely overlooked and is a debate for another column.) Before the Internet, all we had were fanzines and in-publication letter columns, and those were heated in debate, we assure you. Sounds pretty crazy now though doesn’t it? Well, it’s not too far from being outraged about this.
Let’s to back to thinking of movies and television again. If you have a femme fatal character, and you’re introducing her to the viewing audience (as is being done with Starfire here) you often do a few glamorous pans to make it clear “She’s sexy”. It seems redundant, but the same techniques are used to prove characters are “smart” or “cool” or “can make gadgets”. This is the equivalent of Fonzie hitting the juke box. That establishes his super-cool powers. We don’t have issues with the occasional cheesecake, or beefcake (or any kind of cake, but that’s another story) because it’s part of visual story telling.
Lets face it. This is a Space Bikini
Did anyone call scandal about descriptions of Helen of Troy or Juliet? No! (yes… We realize that at the time those were written the enlightened concept of women didn’t exist… but we think the point works.) What about today? The same colleges with “women’s studies” departments ALSO have drama departments performing “Taming of the Shrew.” Just sayin’.
She’s sexy. This isn’t new for Starfire. You’ll remember that she was so famously risque and well, hot, that Terra used to call her “Golden Globes”. Drawing and writing Starfire sexy is not a cause for alarm, it’s the norm. If you have a problem with that, go back to 1979 and yell at George Perez. Also she flashed Lobo to get his help the pages of the 52 miniseries, so at least one creator must have noticed before that she has a body under that nearly nothing… uh… shirt!
Our point: It’s OK that Starfire is Sexy. This book didn’t MAKE Starfire sexy. It’s ok for sexy characters to have a “yes, indeed, she’s sexy” moment!
#3 These scenes have no merrit, and they make it harder for women to read comics:
Have we lost you yet? Well, hold on, because this is the hard part:
People’s real issue here seems to be with Starfire’s wanton sexuality. While we will admit in advance that this portrayal has taken the character about as far as it’s ever gone, you’ll remember she’s always been a bit of a flirt. In the Teen Titans / X-Men crossover when Starfire finds out that Colossus speaks Russian she decides to absorb his language and kisses him. This causes Kitty Pride to refer to her as being a “Hussy”. This was not an isolated incident.
Also this happened. Again… shes always been a little “In your face!”
By the way, the whole “absorbing language” by touching someone thing is bullshit, but that’s not what this is about.
Here’s what we’re going to do: We are going to try and suggest that this might be very well in keeping with her character. We might even suggest that she’s a character worth exploring. Let’s take a look at her background:
Born on an alien planet, she was destined to be queen of her people. As a young princess her own sister betrayed her (and her people) and had her exiled into slavery. SLAVERY! Oh and whose slave was she? Her sister’s… ug. Her sister spent a long amount of time torturing her and letting her get used by men (on Earth, that’s called “rape”), and generally destroying her as a person. Just when her sister was going to have her killed, they were both captured by yet another alien race (Psions) who tortured them both and subjected them to horrible medical experiments.
It was these experiments that gave Starfire the powers she’s known for (Tamaraneans can fly naturally, but that’s the extent of it) and she used these powers to escape. Deciding to rescue her sister (in an unfathomable act of forgiveness and kindness) she is instead re-captured by her, and set to be executed….AGAIN. Finally, she escapes and makes it to Earth where she is instrumental in forming the NEW Teen Titans.
She’s been married twice, both to husbands she didn’t really love, and both of whom died. She almost married Dick Grayson (the love of her life) only to have that ruined as well.
The girl has been through a lot. For a long time she was STILL exiled from her home planet (as a result of her sister’s actions) so she couldn’t even go home.
Our point? How many people do you know who’ve had a damaged past and turn that pain into what the therapists call “Acting Out?” Whether it’s drugs, promiscuous sex, or self destructive behavior… sometimes people go the wrong way when trying to get healthy. Could that be what’s happening here?
Is that not a plot worth exploring? A severely abused woman finding her own inner strength against the odds? (If you don’t think so, don’t tell us you watch Lifetime Movies!) Especially when you accept that to tell the story of a redemptive escape from such a lifestyle you still have the start the characters in it. The Outlaws all seem to have a grudge against the world and a whole lot of the wrong mechanisms for fixing it. Be they adrenalin junkies, compulsive misbehavers[a], or hedonists.
Without going too far into it, we both know about 10 people, male and female, who have taken their troubled past and reacted much in this same way. Some find solace in the bottom of a bottle, and others in a strangers bed (or in overeating, or compulsive exercise, or starting a podcast). Some, even, in extreme comics fandom. These character arcs are stories that need to be told. If we can approach Speedy’s heroin addiction, Gar Logan’s abandonment issues, or Aqualad’s inferiority complex, can’t we also explore the psychology of healing from traumatic abuse? Or is the plot invalid because it also happens to be a sexy woman with big ol’ knockers? I’ll remember that next time I rent “Natural Born Killers” or any of the films that address this. (ok NBK might not be a good example, but you get our point.)
Here we come to what we fear is the crux of the problem. This might not be a popular opinion, but it needs to be said . WeI wonder if there would be this much outrage if Gail Simone wrote this book. Some of the women who wrote very intelligently on this issue still included lines like: “ She’s a character, who was written by a person – specifically, a man”. (Source: a great article by Miss Snarky found here)
Oh? Is that really a thing. Are we determining who can and can’t write a character honestly now because of their gender? We’ll march right over to Gail’s current job writing Firestorm and slap the pen out of her hand, then. We’ll also make sure only black people write black characters and the like. Ok… that’s an overreaction… but I think it comes down to a real point. We think the writer here might have actually been trying to deal with something serious… but because he was a man we decided without any input from him, that this was tits for tits sake. Here’s a particularly horrific example of putting words in Lobdell’s mouth -> LINK!.
This must have been “fan service” to a cadre of mindless fanboys who only want to see Starfire’s golden unmentionables. Why? because what else could it be? A MAN wrote it. Sorry, again that might be overreacting… but speaking of overreacting… WHAT YOU ARE DOING!?!
PS: Boys who want to see Starfire naked can commission that at any of a thousand booths at Anime Expo or dozens of conventions like it. Or they can find animated Starfire porn online. OR they can check out real porn online or, perhaps, leave the house and see real naked girls. My point is that if you are suggesting that this was a vain attempt to woo the male audience with cheesecake, it’s a competition that DC has already lost. I doubt anyone, from writer to editor would greenlight any attempt to corner that market. People, men included, buy comics for stories or superheros or a million different things that are NOT because a bikini is involved. At least most of them do. Sorry, Wildstorm. Anyone remember the Hustler Comics line? I didn’t think so.
In an attempt to achieve some kind of objectivity: Maybe this is a character that HAS been explored in comics before. We wouldn’t be half surprised if women reading this don’t have a list of other times characters have been as sexed up and used the same excuses we are pointing at. That’s a fair and legitimate argument. This may be the millionth time you’ve all read this kind of story and probably always hoped it would be explored to its positive conclusion only to find out that it wasn’t, and it was just more cheese for the cheese factory. What we are saying is we don’t know what the intent of the character is here, and its a little early to start calling it unmerited before we see the plot threads evolve.
Now, we may very well have been putting words in the mouths of the people who wrote because they have issue with this portrayal of Starfire. It may not be about “men and women” but if it isn’t then what is it about? We can’t see an issue there that doesn’t have at least a hand on gender politics and more specifically portrayals of women. If that’s the case aren’t there larger culprits here? Portrayals of women are flawed across the bounds of media from comics to movies to radio plays. So for that matter are a lot of portrays of men (newsflash: we are NOT all drunken, rape-focused frat-boys). Is the bikini scene in this single comics issue the proper battleground? We don’t think so. Oh and We’d like a feminist or two to take a long hard look at the Starfire as portrayed in the Teen Titans cartoon and tell me it’s a unquestionably perfect example for women to strive for.
Or perhaps this is about women in comics, and the grander issue of women’s voices being represented and a female audience being courted or maintained. Yep. These are all important issues too. But is this single issue of a new series the instigator or the best example? HELL NO! Nor is it that cos-player who is playing Starfire (and showing a lot of orange painted skin) but it might as well be. The Batgirl of SDCC was so successful because she pointed to the whole problem, not a single panel, or issue, or character. Oh and check out her blog at http://www.comicsbulletin.com/wheel/ its pretty fracking good! Her latest post deals well with this issue.
Speaking of major issues WORTH discussing. Lets turn our focus away from the sexy, and always sexy Starfire and over to the suddenly (and offensively) sexy Amanda Waller. If you want to throw stones at a move that’s clearly a sad attempt to boost ratings and make a character more “tv ready” then I give you Amanda “The Wall” Waller. Having trouble casting the first stone? We’ll do it: We like Amanda Waller heavy, and sassy, and one of the best balls breaking-est characters in comics. This change is an insult to that character, and frankly, as heavier set Americans ourselves, we think that’s just plain insulting. Not to get off on a rant here, but for as much as fangirls complain that women in comics set a high standard, so too do men, and really any time a heavier character thins out our dreams of being relevant to that world slip away. We’re both actors and as things like this keep happening we’ve started retreating to what seems like the only possibility for us: voice work. It has become increasingly clear that even a superhero’s fat friend in the movies is not his thin former MMA fighter friend. FRACK! Sorry… rant over.
From THIS to THIS. Yup.
The bottom line here: How can we even see Starfire to have this be the center of the debate over the shadow of what Amanda Waller used to be. It says a lot about our “body politic” when we get outraged over a girl being “too hot” and step right over a character that was heavy for years and is now slim and sexy? Focus people. Perspective… get into it!
So what’s the point? Well, its mostly just that this, too, deserves a look from the other side. It also deserves to be understood as a whole before we judge it for being crap. Let’s get the creative team in front of a microphone or a camera and see what they were intending. (We’re looking at you, Scott Lobdell.)
While we’re at it, let’s open the forum of this discussion to everyone, and equally. We took a few days to reply to this because we felt that as men we wouldn’t have our opinion taken seriously. That’s just as “not ok” as women feeling like they don’t have a place in a comic book store. Let’s hash this out. What do the fans want in comics? What is and is not a valid exploration of character? Is the answer more women creators in comics? Is it more women characters in comics? Is it an overhaul of the industry with harsh affirmative action enforcement? Lets talk about it NOW.
BECAUSE IF WE DON’T OPEN THAT DIALOG:
The cold, hard fact of the matter is that Comic Books, like soap, like soda pop, like hamburgers, are a market-driven commodity. Just because they CONTAIN art, and are treated as objects d’art by many of us, DC Comics exists to sell comic books. That’s what they do. And they will do what it takes to sell comic books. 40 years ago, they would put a dinosaur or a gorilla on the cover of a book and it would sell. Audiences are more splintered now and the competition for the comic dollar is stronger than ever.
Since DC is in the business of selling comics, they are not about to alienate their customer base If a concept is unpopular, it will be dropped quickly (Go-Go Checks, Electric Superman, dead Bruce Wayne, Vibe and Gypsy in the Justice League and, perhaps, gratuitously sexy Starfire).
But if “Red Hood & The Outlaws” is a top seller when the dust settles from the DC52 reboot, and I’m not saying it will be– I don’t know– we have no one to blame but ourselves.
So lets get one the same page everyone. equally. and with an understand of who/what/when and why!
Boobs. (that was for ratings)
PS: Powers/Carr would like to offer Fandom Planet as a forum for this discussion. Call the Powers/Carr hotline (865-4-Tim-Sax) and leave a message with your thoughts. We pledge to air everything intelligible (and not blatantly offensive) we receive on this topic. Make sure to leave info on how we can go see anything you have online (blogs, you-tube channels) so people can follow opinions they like. We’ll have some key figures in this debate on the show for a full roundtable in the near future. Let us know if you’re in LA and want to be included. Especially you, Scott Lobdell. Tim still has your cell phone.
PPS: We do have one favor to ask. We HATE a lack of two sided debate on any topic. If you are going to blog or pontificate in any way on this issue we ask that you link us as at least a well-intentioned attempt at a counter-argument to the current Starfire hate-fest. You don’t have to love what we say, just respect the liberty any one has to say it. We’ll do the same for you, and have done so more than once in this article.
Sax Carr is a multi-format producer of geek content and a stand-up comedian with over 10 years on stage all across the country. His weekly stand-up showcase at Unknown Theater was voted LA Weekly’s BEST IN LA. A national name in “fanboy comedy” he has pioneered the art of comedians performing for the “geek target audience” and has an album of geek comedy coming out on New Wave Dynamic records. He is a voice over actor, improviser, and writer and once found a quarter on the street near his house.
Tim Powers is a stand-up comedian from St. Louis who, in addition to being an award-winning radio advertising writer, has provided voices for many American Anime translations. He has a profound love of old films and television which is most obvious in his comedy, and his funny but antiquated references on Fandom Planet (Does anyone really remember “The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis” ?) He has performed alongside The Upright Citizens Brigade, Second City, and noted comedians such as Jim Norton, Louis CK and Chris Rock. He has produced content for National Lampoon’s All Comedy Radio, and loves his grandmother very much!
POWERS/CARR is the creative team behind Fandom Planet the first syndicated all geek podcast. Hosted all over the place including www.geekscape.net and cc2k.us They also produce a weekly “crazy news” podcast for CraveOnline.com called “This is Really Happening”.